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[#1453] Support for OGG Vorbis / Theora missing

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State:
Open
Date:
2007-10-01 12:53
Priority:
3
Submitted By:
Latha Sunkan (sril)
Assigned To:
Nobody (None)
Summary:
Support for OGG Vorbis / Theora missing

Detailed description

Reporter:  Jochen Eisinger <jochen@penguin-breeder.org>  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description:  [reply]  Opened: 2005-10-30 13:55 GMT+3  

The audio player refuses to play ogg encoded audio. Please add an
dsp-accelerated ogg codec.
------- Comment #1 From Jorma Virkkunen 2005-11-01 12:18:47 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Reassigning.
------- Comment #2 From Maemo QA 2006-04-25 12:53:27 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Claiming ownership.

------- Comment #3 From Maemo QA 2006-05-23 10:00:40 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Feature request has been forwarded to upstream maintainer.

------- Comment #4 From Chris Murphy 2006-07-05 23:13:24 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I would greatly appreciate this being added.  Many current OSS applications
that
supports Audio Streaming (Icecast+MPD, others) stream Ogg preferentially to
MP3.
 Enabling Ogg Streaming makes setting up a compliant streaming server
significantly easier.

I would also like to be able to play my large music collection in OGG, but I'm
sure you've heard that reasoning from several individuals already.

Thanks.

------- Comment #5 From Tommi Komulainen 2006-07-06 08:27:37 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
*** Bug 682 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

------- Comment #6 From Tommi Komulainen 2006-07-06 08:28:03 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
*** Bug 683 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

------- Comment #7 From Tommi Komulainen 2006-07-06 08:30:20 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Adding Theora to the summary as mentioned in bug 682 and bug 683

------- Comment #8 From Maemo QA 2006-07-06 15:26:26 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
*** Bug 684 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

------- Comment #9 From Tommi Komulainen 2006-07-07 08:55:55 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
*** Bug 686 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

------- Comment #10 From Siarhei Siamashka 2006-07-17 14:25:46 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Just one more comment on the importance of this issue. Many games use ogg
vorbis
for background music as it does not have any patent problems and also mp3
format
does not have any advantage over ogg vorbis for this purpose at least on dektop
PC. Now when porting such games to Nokia 770 (I'm porting ufo2000 for example),
we have troubles with playing ogg music because of heavy cpu usage. So I think
having vorbis codec support is quite important and it is important to have it
implemented by DSP to free ARM core for other game related tasks.

Thanks.

------- Comment #11 From David Hagood 2006-07-23 17:41:40 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I'd like to add my voice for this as well - AND I'd also like to add Speex to
the mix, for VoIP applications.

------- Comment #12 From Clemens Eisserer 2006-07-23 19:19:39 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
why is this still not in it2006. I would love to see support by DSP code,
however arm-only would be ok too, I just don't want to install players which
don't work and suck out my battery just by not closing them.
------- Comment #13 From Peter Robinson 2006-07-23 20:28:05 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Ogg support with the various codec support (vorbis/theora/speex) would be
excellent so that it can be used in both the audio/video player but speex can
also be used in the  gtalk/sip applications for VoIP

------- Comment #14 From Peter Robinson 2006-08-02 18:17:23 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
should the keywords for this (that were just assigned) not be
enhancement-it2006?

------- Comment #15 From Sebastian Spaeth 2006-11-13 16:43:55 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Sorry, I hate to do bug nagging, but as this one has been mis-keyworded 
enhancement-i2005 a couple of months ago and has not been touched since, so I 
would like to raise this issue again.

This page (http://maemo.org/platform/docs/multimedia/getting_started.html) 
describes how to add ogg support to all native n770 media applications through 
osso-media-server. However, following the instructions given there does not 
work (as has been found out by several people). Could the guy who wrote up that 
please have a look at it again and correct them?

If Nokia doesn't plan to look into this (sorry guys, I can't fix your code as 
this piece is not open :-)), could you at least clearly state that you don't 
have interests/resources for this?

------- Comment #16 From Simon80@gmail.com 2006-11-18 23:30:14 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #15)
> If Nokia doesn't plan to look into this (sorry guys, I can't fix your code as 
> this piece is not open :-)), could you at least clearly state that you don't 
> have interests/resources for this?

indeed, I would say that the 770 is a good case study of the benefits of having
an open source community around a project, since if not for this closed source
dsp business, there would likely be proper support by now in a third party
package.  At least in this case I can understand that probably the only solution
to this for Nokia would be to use a completely different chip for the device
instead of the OMAP 1710.  I held out for a whole year before deciding to buy a
770, partly because of the use of this chip, but in the end, I didn't see any
competition for the sub $400 Linux PDA market.  Anyway, this bug has my vote as
well, vorbis is much more space efficient than mp3, and speex would be nice for
SIP calling, which will be ported to maemo again, it's only a matter of time.

------- Comment #17 From Tay Joshkin 2006-12-15 22:53:04 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
please ... when I bought my 770 I read that ogg-support was just not done
because of time-contraints. but now we already have VoIP and tons of other
stuff. Still ogg-playback is still missing :-/
The stand-alone player sucks out my battery and does not work well.

------- Comment #18 From Tay Joshkin 2006-12-15 22:54:10 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
please ... when I bought my 770 I read that ogg-support was just not done
because of time-contraints. but now we already have VoIP and tons of other
stuff. Still ogg-playback is still missing :-/
The stand-alone player sucks out my battery and does not work well.

------- Comment #19 From Neil MacLeod 2006-12-17 07:52:58 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #14)
> should the keywords for this (that were just assigned) not be enhancement-it2006?

OK, I took the initiative and updated the keyword to "enhancement-it2006".

Anyone from Nokia want to comment?

------- Comment #20 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-03-14 14:53:14 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Picking this one.

------- Comment #21 From Ryan Pavlik 2007-06-11 04:59:31 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Do the Maemo Garage projects https://garage.maemo.org/projects/ogg/ and the
earlier https://garage.maemo.org/projects/mogg/ resolve this to the
satisfaction of Maemo upstream?  In such a case, could they be integrated into
an official firmware rather than as an poorly-publicized add-on?

------- Comment #22 From Simon80@gmail.com 2007-06-11 05:12:02 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that those packages decode the Ogg
files on the ARM core rather than the DSP core. I tried the standalone Ogg
player on my device, and the result was noticeably different from playing mp3s.
 If I did anything with other applications while playing music, the music would
frequently skip as the CPU tried to service both applications at once.

------- Comment #23 From Clemens Eisserer 2007-06-26 00:39:29 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
this is really a joke! still no ogg support for N800, whereat it has been said
that it was not done for 770 just because of time.

To be honest I don't buy this, I guess there are some agreements behind that
which don't allow to push ogg further.

------- Comment #24 From Simon80@gmail.com 2007-06-26 02:18:42 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Perhaps Nokia is incapable of creating a C55x targeted Ogg codec in-house - if
I understand correctly, the other DSP codecs are proprietary and licensed.

------- Comment #25 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-14 14:03:48 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
*** Bug 1035 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

------- Comment #26 From Ralph Angenendt 2007-08-14 14:58:13 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Could this maybe be moved to another OS version (like OS 4.2007) now that bug
1035 which had been filed against an unspecified version has been closed as a
duplicate of this bug? 

------- Comment #27 From Daigoro Toyama 2007-08-14 23:54:17 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #26)
> Could this maybe be moved to another OS version (like OS 4.2007) now that bug
> 1035 which had been filed against an unspecified version has been closed as a
> duplicate of this bug? 

It should be. I have no idea why 1035 was closed as duplicate of this, which is
marked as a 770 bug.

I'd really like to hear Nokia's official opinions on this. I find it absurd
that a Linux-based tablet PC does not support Ogg-Vorbis.

------- Comment #28 From Clemens Eisserer 2007-08-15 00:34:42 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I completly agree here. Its simply a joke.
When the 770 arived they said its a matter of time, the update packages did
_nothing_. The N800 still does not support it.
I wonder whats the problem, all the people are asking for is at least
software-decoded ogg-vorbis playback. Is it really so hard to incooperate??

------- Comment #29 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-15 08:55:07 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I marked the other bug report as duplicated because the core issue is the same
and so it was getting the discussion. Instead of having a duplicated thread I
thought it was better to have everybody interested in ogg support looking at a
single place.

Moving this to product N800 and version unspecified just to show that the issue
reported affects also the latest development and is not restricted to a
specific version. Don't be bothered by the change of device since we will
reorganize the products to make them software centric instead of device
centric.

Some comments in the hope of sharing a common understanding. 

The issue is not *getting* ogg support:

- Users can play ogg files in the tablets downloading third party software. I
haven't found a good place where this is documented, so here it is this new
wiki page: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/playingoggfiles/ . Please improve it
to make it more useful to tablet users.

This will be even easier in the feature with the Automatic codec installer
planned in our roadmap (http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html see Platform). We
have no deadline/release assigned to this yet, sorry.

- Developers have official documentation explaining how to enable ogg support
in their applications:
http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/getting_started_with_multimedia.html
. If you are a developer and you need more information please ask.

From a purely technical point of view this is an issue relatively simple to
address in our platform. Having ogg support out of the box (literally) is a
different story, though.

------- Comment #30 From Leif Ryge 2007-08-15 11:38:43 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #29)
> From a purely technical point of view this is an issue relatively simple to
> address in our platform. Having ogg support out of the box (literally) is a
> different story, though.

Can you tell us the story of Nokia's reasons why not to?

------- Comment #31 From Henry Gomersall 2007-08-15 13:13:44 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
A solution that results in a halved battery life (over MP3) is not a solution
at all.

Why can Nokia not realise that many of the people likely to buy the N800 are
inclined to support open formats? Just write a sodding dsp codec or release all
the info for others to do it. The promise of this being available was a serious
decision factor in my buying of an N800.

------- Comment #32 From Daigoro Toyama 2007-08-15 21:26:32 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #29)
> I marked the other bug report as duplicated because the core issue is the same
> and so it was getting the discussion. Instead of having a duplicated thread I
> thought it was better to have everybody interested in ogg support looking at a
> single place.

Thanks for the explanations. It is clear now.

> From a purely technical point of view this is an issue relatively simple to
> address in our platform. Having ogg support out of the box (literally) is a
> different story, though.

That's exactly what I, like many others, am wondering about. What decision
process was there to decide that Nokia would include built-in, DSP-assisted MP3
support while leaving out the same level of integration for OGG? I have read it
up online and found some people who claim to be close to Nokia saying that it's
a MP3 licensing issue. Is that so?

------- Comment #33 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-16 10:40:10 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I can explain some of the things I have personally learned working at Nokia.
Please don't take them as an official statement. 

The elements that most if not all the companies in this sector / with this size
consider when including a feature in the official support guarantee and
specially in the sales box, inside a physical device are more or less:

- business reasons
- competitors portfolio
- feature available by third parties or not
- intellectual property, licenses, patents
- ongoing plans in other similar features
- resourcing
- strategy & roadmap of the own product
- strategy & roadmap at a higher level (product portfolio, other business
units)
- technical feasibility

Ogg (Vorbis) support is no exception, goes through all these filters and needs
to take in account the whole context. mp3 went through the same filters and
succeeded for obvious reasons. Maybe you can release a Linux distro asking
users to add manually mp3 support, but this doesn't work in the consumer
electronics industry where we operate. 

In general it's tricky to compare directly a stand-alone open source software
distribution with an operating system preinstalled and certified in a device.
Most of the code is similar, but the whole context is radically different. Yes,
Nokia needs to understand the specific needs of the pro-open communities (I
think in general it does), but we tablet owners active in these communities
also need to understand better how things work in companies like Nokia and in
the corporate & commercial context in general.

Vorbis is not the only noticeable codec missing in the tablets sales box and
this is why we want to improve in general the capability of users adding the
codecs they want themselves.

Of course we understand that official support is not the same than not official
support, but we hope you also understand that what for a user implies
installing some software herself for Nokia implies a much more complex move.
Sometimes the move happens, sometimes it doesn't happen, sometimes happens
later.


> Just write a sodding dsp codec or release all the info for others to do it.

You probably know that things don't work like this in commercial software
development.


> The promise of this being available was a serious decision factor

Sorry but... who promised what?

------- Comment #34 From Clemens Eisserer 2007-08-16 11:50:30 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I still can remember statements in the early pre-release phase where people
said mp3 is supported, vorbis not because of time-constraints, but vorbis will
be implemented - its just a matter of time.

I don't remember who said this, nore wether it was an official nokia employee -
however it wasn't an official statement.
Its just floating still in our heads ;)

lg Clemens

------- Comment #35 From Henry Gomersall 2007-08-16 12:36:07 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
>I still can remember statements in the early pre-release phase where people
>said mp3 is supported, vorbis not because of time-constraints, but vorbis will
>be implemented - its just a matter of time.

This was what I recall too. I tried looking for some evidence of this, but
failed, so I may be mistaken. But I certainly got that impression.

Re the development model. Its not an issue of the codec being
included/supported/blessed. Commercial entities release "unsupported" software
all the time.

The real issue is that it is not easy for a third party to implement the
necessary codec in a neat fashion. By this, I mean with use of the DSP.

------- Comment #36 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-17 11:41:39 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
I wasn't trying to challenge your memory, most of you have probably more and
better memory about this project than myself. I just wanted to clarify that
this promise wasn't made officially or in the N800 timeframe. In this case I
should be aware, that's why I asked.

There is no "unsupported" software preinstalled in Nokia devices. Different
support levels can be assigned to software released to be installed by the own
users, but still Nokia has a degree of responsibility there. Nokia is not
responsible of third party software users install in their Nokia devices.

DSP is part of the issue, I understand. But this is a totally different issue
(that we are also aware and trying to solve somehow, sometime).

Really, it's not that we don't understand your reasons. It's not about you
convincing us. It's not about you/us being right/wrong. The message coming from
this bug report (and all the calls in the same direction made out there) is
clear and we are trying to solve the issue in the best way that is in our
capacity. My aim is to help getting a common understanding of the situation and
the plans. We will communicate here any progress.

------- Comment #37 From Henry Gomersall 2007-08-17 12:17:18 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
>DSP is part of the issue, I understand. But this is a totally different issue
>(that we are also aware and trying to solve somehow, sometime).

Thanks for the clarification. Its good to know that all this is on your radar
as something that needs sorting.

------- Comment #38 From Leif Ryge 2007-08-18 00:45:42 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #36)
> My aim is to help getting a common understanding of the situation and
> the plans. We will communicate here any progress.

Are there any plans, aside from making 3rd party codec installation easier?

This bug has remained open for nearly 22 months, leaving many people with the
(now apparently false) impression that Nokia was not adverse to including ogg
support out-of-box and that it was only a matter of time. If it is actually the
case that this is a WONTFIX issue, please, say so!

(In reply to comment #33)
> The elements that most if not all the companies in this sector / with this size
> consider when including a feature in the official support guarantee and
> specially in the sales box, inside a physical device are more or less:
> ...
> - intellectual property, licenses, patents
> ...

Has Nokia agreed to a license which prevents them from supporting ogg
out-of-box?

------- Comment #39 From Daigoro Toyama 2007-08-18 04:39:28 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
(In reply to comment #36)
> Really, it's not that we don't understand your reasons. It's not about you
> convincing us. It's not about you/us being right/wrong. The message coming from
> this bug report (and all the calls in the same direction made out there) is
> clear and we are trying to solve the issue in the best way that is in our
> capacity. My aim is to help getting a common understanding of the situation and
> the plans. We will communicate here any progress.

From the purely technical standpoint, how big a project would it be to create
DSP-enabled support for Ogg-Vorbis? That is, how many man-hours would be
required to create and test the piece of code that achieves the goal? I am
assuming no hardware modifications would be necessary. This is just my
curiosity as a software developer myself.

------- Comment #40 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-20 07:39:59 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
> If it is actually the case that this is a WONTFIX issue, please, say so!

Not a WONTFIX

> Has Nokia agreed to a license which prevents them from supporting ogg
out-of-box?

For more questions please refer by now to my comment #36. As said, we will
communicate here any progress.

------- Comment #41 From Quim Gil (Nokia) 2007-08-20 07:41:03 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
Sorry, fast editing ate my "No":

> Has Nokia agreed to a license which prevents them from supporting ogg
out-of-box?

No

------- Comment #42 From Felipe Contreras 2007-08-24 17:29:37 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
There's updated documentation regarding this issue, but it's still not solved.

http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/getting_started_with_multimedia.html

------- Comment #43 From Nonya 2007-09-21 04:40:34 GMT+3 [reply] ------- 
This bug gets my vote.  Some of the newer open source programs REQUIRE ogg to
even compile let alone run on the N800.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Followup

Message
Date: 2008-05-06 13:13
Sender: Andre Klapper

also see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 for further
discussion

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